Seattle City Council Public Safety & Human Services Committee 5/5/22 Special Meeting

We are recording.

Thank you so much.

The May 5th, 2022 special meeting of the Public Safety and Human Services Committee will come to order.

It is 2.02 p.m.

and I am Lisa Herbold, chair of the committee.

Will the clerk please call the roll?

Vice Chair Lewis?

Present.

Council Member Nelson?

Council Member Mosqueda?

Council Member Peterson.

Present.

And Chair Herbold.

Here.

Three present.

Great, thank you.

Council Member Mosqueda's office has let me know that she will not be able to attend today's meeting.

She is excused.

And Council Member Nelson's office let me know that she'll be just a little bit late, and I'll recognize her just as soon as she joins the meeting.

On today's agenda, we'll have a public hearing on Council Bill 120294, also known as the pay-up minimum compensation, transparency legislation.

And with that, we'll approve our agenda for our committee meeting.

There is no objection.

Today's agenda will be adopted.

Hearing no objection, today's agenda is adopted.

I'll moderate the public hearing in the following manner.

Each speaker signed up to testify will be given two minutes.

I'll call on each speaker by name and in the order in which they registered on the council's website.

If you've not yet registered to speak, but you'd like to speak, you can sign up before the end of the public hearing by going to the council's website.

This link is also listed on today's agenda.

Once I call a speaker's name, you'll hear a prompt.

And once you've heard that prompt, we ask that you hit star six to unmute yourself.

Please begin speaking by stating your name.

And speakers will hear a chime when 10 seconds are left of the allotted time.

Once the speaker hears that chime, we ask that you please begin to wrap up your public comments.

If you do not end your comments at the end of the allotted time provided, the speaker's mic will be muted after 10 seconds to allow us to hear from the next speaker.

Once you've completed your public comment, please disconnect from the line.

If you plan to continue following the meeting, you can do so via the Seattle Channel or the listening options listed on the agenda.

Currently, it looks like we have about 32 people signed up to testify.

Appreciate everybody being here with us today.

I recognize that in regular committee meetings, we've not been able to hear from everybody who has testified and hopefully this extra time is useful in ensuring that we do speak here from more folks.

With that, clerk, can you please read in agenda item one so we can get that into the record and open the public hearing?

Committee agenda item number one, Council Bill 120294, an ordinance relating to app-based worker labor standards, establishing compensation scheme for app-based workers with minimum pay requirements and related standards for transparency and flexibility, amending sections 3.02.125, 3.15.000, and 6.15.000.

208.020 of the Seattle Municipal Code and adding a new Title 8 and Chapter 8.37 to the Seattle Municipal Code.

Thank you, Alex.

So I'll start with Lakeisha Farmer.

And Lakeisha Farmer will be followed by Anna Powell.

Good afternoon.

I am Lakeisha Farmer with Working Washington.

I wanted to speak on two potential amendments that we are against.

First we reject allowing companies to calculate minimum required payment on a pay period basis rather than on a per offer basis.

Companies are seeking this because it would result in a significant pay cut.

Not only would it lower workers pay and undermine transparency protections but it also has no basis in how contractors are otherwise paid by offer.

If implemented this change would entirely undermine the intent of the policy.

In fact Seattle's fair share minimum payment calculation for TNC drivers is applied to each offer as are the minimum payment agreed to by Uber and Lyft in Washington's House Bill 2076. Every policy not written entirely by the companies calculates minimum pay on a per-offer basis because a weekly calculation is a pay cut in disguise.

Second we reject exempting marketplace network companies.

Removing coverage of network companies would entirely undermine the purpose of this ordinance.

leaving thousands of workers without any protections.

The marketplace definition has not been crafted to identify a type of company where labor standards are not necessary, but rather to define a type of company that simply needs specific language to accommodate for how workers and customers interact.

Using this definition as a basis to exclude workers could have disastrous impacts and incentivize bad actors to take advantage of what would become a loophole.

Marketplace platforms like Rover and TaskRabbit have engaged robustly in a stakeholder process around the pay up policy for almost a year.

And stakeholders have worked together constructively to identify policy solutions which accommodate changing business models while also fulfilling the intention of providing basic labor standards protections to workers.

The pay up policy has been designed as a broad labor standard for gig workers who are currently exempt from such standards.

We urge you to reject these amendments and pass the legislation as intended.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Anna Powell and I'll be followed by Shelby Hanson.

Hi, my name is Anna Powell and I'm the manager of government relations in the Northwest for DoorDash.

We are opposed to DoorDash or we are opposed to pay up as introduced and feel the council should pause to study and fully understand its impact to the community before it is passed.

As the City Council considers legislation that may cut over $32 million in aggregate earnings for dashers due to declines in order volume, it's important to separate myths from facts.

You may have heard the phrase sub-minimum wage.

The fact is, dashers in Seattle earn on average $28 per hour while on delivery.

The average dasher works less than 10 hours a week and does not rely on the platform as their only source of income.

but instead to supplement full-time work or achieve financial goals.

In fact, we know that 36% of dashers in Washington have dashed to avoid needing to apply for government benefits, and 68% of dashers have dashed to make up for lost income or reduced hours at work.

Finally, and as you may even hear during today's public hearing, proponents will say PAYA was designed with industry input.

The fact is, While we appreciate the ongoing conversations with stakeholders, we feel that our input has not properly been considered or included in this legislation, and we do not support the pay-up proposal.

Thank you for your time.

Next speaker is Shelby Hansen, and Shelby will be followed by Toby Crittenden.

Shelby.

I'm Shelby, a gig worker on Rover and a member of the pay-up campaign.

Rover has always encouraged their workers to always maintain a low pay threshold in order to undercut other Rover workers.

Their safe pay isn't enough to sustain a livable wage, let alone to live without some sort of debt.

Rover takes 20% of each and every job I do.

With a workforce of over 300,000, Rover makes over $1.5 million per singular job at any given time.

When you have to choose between shelter, food, or transportation, this isn't a way to live.

Forcing people to accept low wages is another way to disenfranchise people and force them into poverty.

And poverty affects us all.

Rover is in our own backyard.

And as a Seattle company, You would have thought they would have treated us better.

We need the Seattle City Council to pass the Pay Up campaign now to help us.

Thank you very much for listening to me speak.

Thank you.

Thank you, Shelby.

Our next speaker is Toby Crittenden followed by Tiffany Alpedras.

Good afternoon, Chair Herbold and council members.

My name is Toby Crittenden and I'm here today on behalf of Seattle Restaurants United or SRU, which represents over 240 small and independent restaurants here in Seattle.

SRU is strongly in support of pay up and we urge you to advance legislation.

Our members are business owners who want to see our city and our economy reflect our values of community hospitality.

We believe that when the most marginalized in our communities are truly cared for, it's good for our business, it's good for our customers, and really it's good for the city.

Over the past few years, I think as everyone's aware, delivery apps have become an increasingly large part of the restaurant business.

More and more of our members make use of these apps and depend on delivery to keep business moving during tough times and to serve customers where they are.

Now the apps present their own challenges to restaurants, charging large commissions and sometimes even listing restaurants without permission.

The City Council moved to impose a commission cap and required apps to get permission before listing restaurants, and those are great initial steps to help rebalance that power differential.

But gig workers need protection too, and that's why we support pay up.

We believe that the principle that every worker should be paid enough to pay their bills, nourish their families, and especially when they're hospitality workers.

It's good economics, we're all better off when the people who make, serve, and deliver food can afford food themselves.

We can't recover from COVID without thriving restaurants in our city.

And that means making sure that everyone working in our industry is paid enough to support themselves, whether they're bringing your dinner to your table or to your front door.

So this policy, we hope that is a priority for action in the next few months.

Now is the time to make these apps pay up.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker, Tiffany Alvidrez, is not showing as president.

We'll come back to Tiffany if that changes.

So we'll go down to Carmen Figueroa, followed by Justin Hyer.

Carmen.

Hello, I am Carmen Figueroa with the Pay Up Campaign.

Gig industry executives have made millions of dollars in personal profits off my labor and have no intentions of investing in me or any of their workers.

Their lobbyists on this call will make outlandish claims to justify paying gig workers some minimum wages.

These lobbyists will derail equity conversations with ridiculous debates and demands to delay equity with useless studies.

Their talking points created by app lawyers are designed to pit minority small businesses against gig workers of color.

Expanding pay models for gig workers makes social economic equality a reality and not just a campaign slogan.

Common sense and not the study is all that is needed to understand when workers get paid more, they spend more in their communities.

The council's time would better be studying what hurts small businesses is app executives transferring more and more profits to themselves, sniping it, siphoning away cash from communities.

For those who find themselves at the top of the financial pyramid, it costs nothing to provide equity for those holding them up for below.

All the payout policy will do is elevate the marginalized.

I am trusting lawmakers to pass the payout policy for gig workers because we are not disposable and should not be exploited.

Thank you for your support.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Justin Hire, and Justin will be followed by Mandolin Noir.

Justin.

Good afternoon.

My name is Justin Hire, and I'm the Director of Government Affairs for the Same Day Delivery Platform SHIPS.

Thank you for providing me with the opportunity to respectfully express our concerns.

The sharing economy has provided critical, flexible work opportunities for millions of Americans and thousands right here in Seattle.

The ordinance before you creates the potential for additional barriers to entry for these earners and may ultimately drive down the flexible earning opportunities available to them.

Our effort-based approach at SHIPT allows for shoppers to work as little or as much as they want and in a way that suits their individual needs.

It's worth noting that 75% of our shoppers choose to work less than 10 hours a week for SHIPT, and last year, SHIPT shoppers made, on average, between $25 and $35 per hour when factoring in offer pay, bonuses, and tips.

Delivery app-based work involves many nuanced factors in order to ensure the system works for both our customers and our shoppers.

There have been no attempts to study the economic impacts of this measure, which risks economic uncertainty and risks the flexible work opportunities shoppers in Seattle value.

Thank you for providing me with the opportunity to respectfully express our concerns with this ordinance.

Please reach out with any questions you may have.

I appreciate your time.

Thank you, Justin.

Our next speaker, Mandela Noir, is showing as not present, but will come back.

that changes.

So then we'll move down to Brian Rodriguez, followed by Joel Shapiro.

Brian.

Hi, my name is Brian Rodriguez, and I am a Dasher based in Seattle.

I am working to save enough to go back to school without having to depend on my parents and family.

All of us are going through a hard time right now, especially with the pandemic, rising gas prices and inflation, but dashing has made it possible to remain financially free all while making it to class on time.

Not having to choose between my education and making money has made these uncertain times easier, and I want to stay that way.

I stand before you today because I worry that the current pay-up proposal is problematic.

If we're trying to pass a proposal to help Dashers, I'd want to know that our legislators have done everything necessary to make sure it actually does end up helping us, not hurting us.

I ask the City Council to take more time to study pay-up so that you better understand the consequences of the proposal before passing it.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Joel Shapiro, and Joel will be followed by Allison Ford.

Joel?

Hi, my name is Joel Shapiro, and I'm one of the co-founders of Dumpling and also a member of the Labor Standards Advisory Committee here in Seattle.

It's no secret that the gig economy is broken.

Low pay, no flexibility, no transparency, and no opportunities for people to take control of their own work.

We need new business models to fix it, and also new policies to ensure workers have basic protections.

That's why my co-founders and I started Dumpling, and it's also why I support the payoff policy being considered by city council.

Technology has the potential to deliver a unique degree of flexibility, along with meaningful transparency and fair pay, but that's not what workers experience on apps like Instacart and DoorDash.

In fact, more often than not, technology in the gig economy is being used for the exact opposite.

Instead of transparent and fair pay, Pay rates are determined by constantly changing algorithms designed to go as low as the company can get away with.

Instead of flexibility to decide which jobs are actually worth taking, workers are pitted against each other in a race to immediately accept or lose job offers.

Workers are left to cover all of their own expenses and left to hope for tips in order to make any money.

I've heard from workers on these apps for years as we've been building Dumpling right here in Seattle.

Our aim is to use technology to flip the gig economy on its head by creating a true ownership model for workers.

And while our team is dedicated to making our ownership model succeed, it's not enough.

There will always be other companies in the market.

And if they're not guided by a mission to equip workers with proper pay and supportive tools and transparency, workers will pay the price.

And that's exactly what we've seen over these past few years.

The gig economy has a ton of promise to provide people the flexible access to income they need, but it also has a ton of downside, especially when it's out of balance like it is now.

Although businesses like Dumpling are helping to provide meaningful opportunities to workers, we need policies like PAYEA to move forward to ensure workers don't bear all of the costs when companies fail to step up.

Thank you.

Thank you, Joel.

Our next speaker is Allison Ford, and Allison will be followed by Khadain Bayein.

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Chair Herbold and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak.

My name is Allison Ford and I am the public policy manager for Uber in the Pacific Northwest.

As we have testified in the past, Uber is supportive of an earning standard and welcomes the opportunity to partner with the city council and all stakeholders to develop a legislative solution.

However, this current bill needs significant amendments in order to address what will certainly be widespread unintended consequences impacting small businesses and the work opportunities of platform drivers.

Among our many concerns are the overall high cost of the earnings standard formula and lack of research to truly measure what impact this will have on the community and the economy.

This bill is also lacking basic guardrails to protect against potential fraud that is a well-known problem throughout our industry.

We implore this committee to please take the time to fully consider the amendments and the policy recommendations that have been brought to your attention before moving forward with passing this bill.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Kadeen Begay followed by Ma Hernandez.

Kadeen.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, we gotcha.

Oh, now you're on mute again.

Star six again, please.

We see you, Kadain.

I just, I think I need you to hit star six again.

There you go.

Perfect.

Okay.

All right.

Can you hear me now?

Yes, we can.

Thank you.

All right, my name is Kidani Bayena.

I'm a member of PayApp.

I had an experience with a lot of companies in the gig industry, like Amazon, Uber, Lyft, as well as Instacart.

So I'm just here today to testify that in this country, the gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider and wider.

The middle class is diminishing.

This is because of the labor force.

good regulations, especially when it comes like a labor job, the one is covered by employee and employer, as well as big companies with independent contractors.

So the city, as well as other governmental organizations, they should have a strong policy regarding this kind of rules, because the big or big companies, they just make billions of dollars, while each and every individual, independent contractors, they make less than minimum wage.

So in order to keep up with the living standard of the day-to-day, what we see right now, the inflation and other factors, people, they cannot even afford to live, because minimum wage, the word explaining, it doesn't make sense.

People, they have to make a living income.

So in order to make a living income, governments has to have as well as independent contractors and gig workers, they have to have, on the same platform, they have to have access.

And also, the government has to put a cap on the margins of these companies, because they're independent contractors to make a living, and then also to have a stable economy for the country.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Ma Hernandez.

followed by Michelle Thomas.

And Ma, there you go.

Hello, my name is Maria Hernandez.

The people working for business are not the ones doing, we are the ones shopping for dog food, picking up from restaurants and taking to customers.

driving around the block two or three times because we can't find parking lot.

That's time and gas, DoorDash is not paying for that.

Has to come out of our pockets.

We are not earning what the apps claim we are earning.

We need to, this policy now, we can't wait for the gig app working.

for the pay up policy.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Michelle Thomas, followed by Wei Lin.

Michelle.

Hi, I'm Michelle Thomas with the Washington Low Income Housing Alliance here to support pay up to eliminate sub minimum pay for gig workers in Seattle.

And to thank you Council Member Herbold for your leadership on this important policy.

There's an undeniable link between wages and our state and city's affordable housing and homelessness crisis.

People cannot afford the sky-high rents in Seattle and the greater region.

Eviction for nonpayment of rent is the top reason people lose their homes and is a leading cause of homelessness.

The Housing Alliance is doing work at the state and regional level to address this crisis, but it will not be solved if workers earn too little to pay the rent and to meet their other basic needs.

I know all of you on the council feel urgency to end our homelessness crisis and this is why we urge you to support pay up.

You may recall an article in the Seattle Times a couple of months back that featured a worker who was fearing the end of the eviction moratorium.

They were urgently working to wrestle up money to pay the rent and to stay housed.

They are a gig worker and their story is not unique.

It's something we hear a lot, gig workers who are facing the impossible situation of uncertain income and pay that is far too low to meet their housing costs.

Everyone needs and deserves a safe, healthy, and affordable home.

And every worker needs and deserves the security of a minimum wage for their work.

I urge you to support pay up and to not weaken the policy with company-driven amendments that would lower pay, create loopholes, or exclude workers from basic protections.

Thank you so much for your work on this important policy.

Thank you, Michelle.

Our next speaker is Wei Lin, followed by Mike Sotelo.

Wei.

Hi, greetings, everyone from the hearing.

My name is Wei Lin, and I work for GoPub since February 2020. As a gig worker myself, I really need the payout policy pass.

At the beginning of the year, GoPub has been continuously changing the method on payout very often without no reason.

and had a huge impact on drivers' income on each order drivers have done.

They took away guaranteed pay shift blocks that cut down our earnings tremendously without the minimum pay for the drivers.

Also, the new system they are using right now only send out one bag at a time, so most of the drivers have increased their mileage and gas costs on the cars but not earned worth it.

Because GoPub stretched their delivery zoom for more business and increased the receipt for the customers, and third-party apps.

But drivers still earn less and less on each bag orders because we mostly only run out with one single bag and for one round trip.

So when we're working with the GoPro, we have to clock in the warehouse and wait for our returns.

There's a line of drivers waiting.

Sometimes it could take up more than 90 minutes waiting for just one single order.

And those times we are waiting are not covered, but at our own risk.

There are different times of the day that can affect driver's income, so it is very important if driver can make even minimum rate on each single trip, all round trips, that would really help the drivers.

But there's to say, if drivers are also hardworking people, we risk our safety and health during the night and day.

Most of us are actually doing double the overtime during the pandemic.

By not receiving PSAT properly, because the big corporations like GoParts think that they can manipulate drivers so easy and control our rightful income to make their business going well.

And all I want is one fair pay, not much, to make sure we can survive in this city, to live out the inflection and other economic impact to us, to have a bowl of cereal for the family, for ourselves in Seattle.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Mike Sotelo, and Mike will be followed by Michelle Balzer.

Mike, if you could hit star six.

Mike, I don't know if you can hear me.

We need you to hit star six to get you off of mute.

Oh, we almost had you.

Try again, please.

There you go.

OK, here we go.

Sorry, everyone.

I apologize.

Mike Patello chairman of the Washington Ethnic Chambers of Washington State.

And on behalf of the Ethnic Chambers you know we were formed to give a unified voice to many ethnic communities in our region.

And we have some concerns about that are related to the Seattle payoff proposal.

Just a couple of them is our concern on flexibility is you know I mean a lot of our members have two jobs.

They do driving after they run their businesses and they have to have the flexibility in order to you know, pick up the kids and just do all the things that's associated with running a family and the management of a small business.

A 200% minimum wage increase as written would just cost, will hurt small business.

There's just no doubt about it.

It would hurt small business.

And right now we don't need that.

There's the negative impact to something like this at the time that we're just dealing with the pandemic ending.

We have safety issues to where our customers are not allowed, I mean, it's almost impossible to find a parking spot as that one person said earlier, but also they're afraid of getting burglarized their cars.

I mean, Seattle's what, the number one in the country for being burglarized?

And so, or you could say $25 for parking.

So this right now is just very untimely for small business because we just don't need this right now.

Now we wanna work with the council on coming up with something that's more palatable, but we were never asked.

what are 2600 members represented?

So we at this point stand opposed to this type of proposal and would like to work with the council in the future.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Michelle Balzer and Michelle will be followed by Jacqueline Morris.

Michelle, can you hit star six, please?

Hello.

Perfect.

Okay, perfect.

So I'm Michelle, and I am full time with Instacart, and it is my only gig.

And I want to say first, thanks to everyone on the council for kind of spending the last year listening to us and our concerns, and, you know, supporting us in this policy.

I just, you know, gig companies have a long history of exploiting their workers.

They use the independent contractor label to avoid paying their fair share of taxes, benefits, wages, while we, the shoppers, the workers, drivers, are the face of the company.

We directly impact their revenue and the customer satisfaction.

Not only do we carry the burden of expenses, we also really don't have a say in our work.

I know that they keep saying flexible, but we don't get to determine what orders we see, and we are pitted against each other.

And those algorithms determine where we shop, when we shop, how we shop.

We really don't have any control And I know while I respect the concern for what the impact of this policy could be, we and you need to consider the full impact on everyone and not just the small business sector.

An investment in workers means an investment in the local infrastructure, local businesses, families.

None of these companies have any investment in our city or the people in it.

These apps are a third party, which means they're a middleman.

A middleman in charging the businesses they quote unquote support and pay minimally to those that directly impact their profit.

Passing this policy will not only, will not harm customers or businesses, they will both continue.

Local businesses will go on, workers will continue to work.

It will just fall under a different umbrella.

And also an alternate pay method that some of these gigs are kind of coming up with, they aren't going to work.

In the past, there's been issues with transparency, changes were made, and slowly, I've watched just in the last year or two, with those kind of transparencies go away.

This policy allows the worker to be able to track their earnings and know that they're getting paid honestly.

And that's what we need.

Thank you, Michelle.

Our next speaker is Jacqueline Morris.

Jacqueline will be followed by Jack Sorensen.

Good afternoon, Council Member Herbold, committee.

My name is Jacqueline Morris.

I'm the Engagement Director for Drive Forward.

I have been a part of the stakeholder meeting from the beginning, and I thank Council Member Herbold and her office for making us a part of this.

I want to say this message is really for all the gig workers that are listening and will listen, our members out there that I've been speaking to, that who is being pitted against as Drive Forward and the companies and Pay Up, we're being pitted against each other.

And I'm here to say that we're actually pretty much on the same page.

We all agree, and every stakeholder that's been a part of the meetings agree that a standard needs to be created.

I'm hopeful that we will get to a solution, but that's why we need a study.

I know that there's a lot of emotions tied to this issue.

I feel it personally, and I hear it on a daily basis from our members.

But the fact is laws are very serious business and they should be created, brought up with emotion, but then created and implemented with data.

And just to make sure that we are not unintentionally creating a worse scenario for the gig workers.

Every stakeholder agrees that delivery workers do need attention.

And it is also why we call for delivery workers to be focused on in this legislation.

And thank you so much for your time.

And I look forward to our continued conversation.

Thank you so much.

I just want to recognize that Council Member Nelson has joined us.

Moving on to the next speaker.

We have Jack Sorensen and Jack will be followed by Elaine Xon-Kowns.

Jack.

Good afternoon.

My name is Jack Sorensen, and I'm here on behalf of Civic Ventures to share our support for pay up legislation.

Look, the usual cry wolf claims about stronger wages hurting businesses are as inaccurate as they always are.

The last couple of years have been a boom time for gig companies.

They are raking in record profits while paying subminimum wages.

We wouldn't allow any other employer in the city to get away with this.

but we have a system that has allowed gig companies to exploit people in our city to maximize their profits.

Not only is this morally reprehensible, it's also terrible for our city's economy and terrible for the very small businesses like restaurants that these gig companies and their representatives claim to support.

For every dollar these companies take from the people who work for them, that's $1 less spent at local restaurants or coffee shops at the consignment store or movie theater or tire shop.

Gig companies like DoorDash, Instacart, Uber, Postmates, GoPuff and others are effectively siphoning money out of Seattle's economy and delivering it to their CEOs and shareholders.

It's at the expense of workers and families as well as small businesses throughout the city.

Passing pay up won't just benefit workers, it will benefit Seattle's economy and small businesses.

Because when workers have more money in their pockets, they spend it at local businesses.

Businesses make more and in turn hire more workers to meet the demand.

It's a win-win.

Seattle can choose to once again be a national leader by passing payout policies and once again showing that the right thing to do is also the smart thing to do for our economy.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Next speaker is Elaine Exxon Combs.

Elaine?

I'm sorry if I mispronounced your name.

And, perfect.

Hi, can you hear me now?

We can, thank you.

Hi, this is Alon Sean Collins.

I'm the Director of State and Local Government's Public Policy for the Chamber of Progress, Democratic Tech Industry Coalition Promoting Technology's Progressive Future.

We work to ensure that all Americans benefit from technological leaps.

We urge opposition to the PAYA proposal.

We think this is well-intentioned to help delivery drivers and gig service providers afford the rising cost of living in Seattle, but will ultimately lead to higher delivery and service costs, which in turn will mean higher costs for Seattle families and fewer orders for drivers and gig workers.

We want to see livable wages for those in Seattle, but because this proposal sets such a high hourly wage, services that help families like grocery delivery, meal delivery, and dog walking will all see prices increase.

in order to afford the increased rage.

We encourage the city council to set this ordinance aside until an economic impact study can be done to understand the full impact of this type of legislation.

Thank you very much for your consideration.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Talisha Harold.

Talisha will be followed by Rich Morris.

Hi this is Talisha Harold.

I am a Seattle gig worker and I am testifying on behalf and in support of the pay up.

Gig companies like DoorDash and Instacart claim that paying gig workers more will result in the price of services increasing for customers.

These gig companies claim to be especially concerned about the impact this will have on seniors people with disabilities and low income customers that rely on the services.

This is a flawed premise for two important reasons.

One is that customers are essentially paying gig worker wages.

And many of those customers are the same populations that these gig companies claim to be so concerned for, seniors, people with disabilities, and low income customers.

Gig companies are often paying as low as $2 a job and are allowing the customers to supplement worker pay with their tips.

So when these companies claim workers make $27 an hour, Well, most of that is the result of customer tips.

A worker should not need to depend on tips to earn a fair wage.

Without customer tips, pay for these jobs would certainly be sub-minimum.

Many gig workers can show you from their pay documents that 50% or more of their pay is from tips.

The second flaw of this premise is that it completely ignores the fact that many seniors, people with disabilities, and low-income folks are also gig workers.

So these companies aren't even recognizing that folks from these communities are making up a large portion of their workforce, the workforce that makes the success of these apps even possible.

If these companies care for seniors, people with disabilities, low income customers, wouldn't they want to acknowledge that they make up a sizable portion of their workforce?

And wouldn't they want to express their concern for their financial well-being by paying seniors, people with disabilities, low income folks, or for their workforce a fair and equitable wage.

We don't need more data to know they need to pay the fair share.

Thank you so much, Talisha.

Our next speaker is Rich Morris and Rich will be followed by, actually want to go back up to, I see Tiffany Alvidrez is present.

So we'll do Rich Morris and then go back up to Tiffany Alvidrez.

Rich.

Good afternoon, council people.

Go ahead.

I'm a disabled employee.

I had a stroke 12 years ago.

Crucial for me to be able to do DoorDash because it's the only job I can do.

I need to be able to make a fair wage while doing it.

Thank you for your time.

Bye.

Thank you so much, Mr. Morris.

Our next speaker is Tiffany Alvidrez.

Good afternoon, Chair Herbold and members of the committee.

Thank you so much for coming back to me.

Apologies for the technical difficulties earlier.

My name is Tiffany Alvidrez, and I'm the Western Region Policy Manager for Instacart.

Instacart continues to be opposed to CB 120294, the payoff legislation.

We remain very concerned that these ordinances threaten access to vital services for local businesses, including Seattle-area grocers and other brick-and-mortar retailers.

We also have some concerns around the lack of transparency in this public process to pass this ordinance.

25 amendments were presented to the council by central staff at the hearing last week, but not every proposed amendment, including those proposed by Instacart, was presented for public discussion.

We respectfully request the council extend this process to make the time necessary to study the potential impacts, as well as consider a number of amendments, such as replacing the current per minute per mile formula with a minimum earning standard of at least 120% of minimum wage.

And ensuring this minimum focuses on covering only independent contractors and not W-2 employees, who are already covered by city and state wage and hour laws.

Thank you for the opportunity to publicly raise some of the tenets of Instacart's counterproposal.

We will continue to remain engaged in this process.

Thank you so much.

Our next speaker is Jason Renick, followed by Jonathan Thompson.

Good afternoon, council members.

My name is Jason.

I'm a successful full-time Instacart shopper, occasional Doordasher and West Seattle resident.

Immediately after I'm done speaking, I'm going to send you a more detailed email.

I please beg you to take the time to read it.

I worked very hard to become a successful shopper, and the pay is fantastic.

I used to struggle for 20 years to pay off some debts, and six months after becoming an Instacart shopper, they were paid off.

I moved out of my slum of an apartment to a beachfront apartment on Alki, and I bought my dream car.

This is a fantastic opportunity for those with the right skill.

If you'll think back before the pandemic, these gig-based apps were fully accepted as mere side hustles with the potential to possibly make some extra income in one spare time.

Also using multiple apps at once was the standard back then.

Then the pandemic hit, businesses closed, people lost their source of income and turned to gig work to help make ends meet.

And then primary source of income.

There's no interview, no qualifications.

Anyone with a car and smartphone has access to try these opportunities, but that does not mean everyone will succeed.

Instacart in particular requires a certain level of focus, skill and self-motivation.

You can't check your email or social media.

You must be fully engaged.

I've never heard any of these companies so much as insinuate that they're offering a full-time alternative to traditional employment.

If the pandemic never happened, would we even be having this discussion?

I'm not an employee.

I'm not a contractor.

I'm a gig worker.

Gig apps are a new industry brought forth by the technology and out-of-the-box thinking.

It is wrong to try to stuff them into old models of employment.

New ways of thinking need to be applied when discussing legislature.

To me, Instacart's like a middleman or a broker, connecting buyers with those willing to shop and deliver.

I've checked my earnings against order fees placed by someone I know.

Instacart can't take more than a dollar or two.

The lion's share of the profits go to us already.

You know, the ride giving apps are different than restaurant apps and different than personal shopping.

Please look at them individually, please.

Thank you so much.

Our next speaker is Jonathan Thompson and Jonathan will be followed by Kevin Bolt.

Hello my name is Jonathan Thompson a member of the Transit Riders Union and a gig app customer.

I'm here to urge you to pass the payout policy.

I am not able to work.

I live on disability and I also get support from my parents.

My disability makes grocery shopping impossible so I rely on Instacart for my groceries.

I often wonder are these workers paid enough.

Instacart charges so little upfront for the service that as a customer, I can't tell how much Instacart workers take home.

I always try to tip well, but I never know if it's enough.

As someone who relies on gig delivery services, it would help my conscience to understand that a driver is already making a living wage with what they're receiving from the company.

It shouldn't just be up to the goodwill of individual customers to make sure gig workers have a decent living wage.

And I also think it's silly that some of these gig companies are touting their take-home average pay because that clearly doesn't cover people on the bottom end of the average or on the costs and taxes that are borne by the gig workers.

Calls for an economic study are clearly just a delay tactic.

And I would also like to say that during the $15 an hour wage campaign, the Chamber of Commerce cried about how Worker wage increases would kill business and I think we can all see this has not been the case.

Please pass the pay up policy.

Thank you.

Thank you Jonathan.

Our next speaker is Kevin Bolt and Kevin will be followed by Orlando Santana.

Kevin.

Thank you.

My name is Kevin Bolt and I'm one of many Seattle area gig workers who I've experienced the ups and downs of the gig economy.

I started with deliveries with DoorDash and Postmates with mixed success and I switched over to Instacart and have made a much more respectable income as a gig type of income to supplement my full-time job.

I've recently changed jobs.

I've actually found a job that works well with my gig income, but I still see and I've been witnessing the frustrations of my fellow delivery workers and our exasperation and frustrations with the way that Instacart and other gig apps or delivery apps are actually operated, customer interactions, attempting to resolve problems, a lack of transparency is a really big issue.

And I feel very passionate about addressing the council to consider passing this proposal because we really need protections.

I'm probably unique in the fact that I have no disabilities.

I work full-time.

I'm fully ambulatory.

I consider myself a good public speaker.

I definitely want to emphasize the fact that I have witnessed my fellow workers get frustrated with issues with timing, specifically like the app freezing or In limited cases, I guess harassment or whatever, lack of access to public restrooms and so on, pandemic related issues.

And I know for a fact that during the pandemic, it became very challenging to make a living wage per delivery because there have been a number of challenges associated with the pandemic.

And I understand business is business, but we need protections.

the gig companies to work with us and be fair and transparent.

Thank you so much.

Our next speaker is Orlando Santana.

Orlando.

Hello, my name is Orlando Santana.

I just want to thank the city council just for taking the time to hear this couple man's words.

I don't know if the council is aware, but back in 2021 in February, The FTC ordered Amazon to pay out $61.7 million of money, of tips, that they would pay out from the gig worker.

And I received money from this settlement, and it was very astonishing and disappointing that somebody you work hard for, that you contract with, that would do something, withhold money and pay for you.

And this really creates, for me personally, a lack of trust and transparency.

So when I hear representatives from DoorDash and Instacart say that the average worker is making over $28 an hour, me personally have never gone close to making that much.

I discovered gig work when I was let go of a full-time job and it allowed me to make some money to help pay the bills and not put the burden on my wife to meet all our financial needs.

I heard the gentleman from DoorDash mention that these gig apps create flexibility, which I 100% agree with.

It allows a flexibility to spend time with my family, to go to functions of my nieces and nephews that a normal nine to five wouldn't allow.

They want to label us as independent contractors, yet we have no say we cannot negotiate our pay, we have to accept what they offer.

And that could go down from one day to the next, even from one order to the next order.

So I am in support of the pay up campaign just to bring transparency and fair pay.

I hear them say that this is not meant to be a full-time job, it's a supplement income.

Whether that's true or not for each individual, fair pay should be fair pay no matter the

Thank you so much.

Next speaker is Kimberly Wolfe.

Kimberly?

And while Kimberly is getting off of mute, I'll just state that we have two additional speakers who are listed as not present right now.

That's Ixilmina Ramos-Ramirez and Elizabeth Gilmore.

But next, let's go to Kimberly Wolfe.

Kimberly, can you hit star six, please?

I see that you're with us, but we need you to hit star six.

There you go.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

I'm sorry about that.

The phone call dropped right at the right time.

Go ahead, Kimberly.

Oh, I'm sorry, you cut out again.

Please begin speaking.

Okay.

Sorry about that.

I'm Kimberly Gig Worker.

I support pay up legislation.

I'm also very adamant about keeping my flexibility.

And I'm happy to see that pay up not only protects what flexibility I have, but increases it.

I sat in stakeholder meetings all last year.

The gig companies were encouraged to participate.

They had plenty of time to request changes in the policy, study the situation, and get ready for the changes on their back end.

Many chose instead to wait until the last minute to blast out misleading propaganda in order to defeat this very reasonable policy.

I've heard the scare tactics about gig workers losing work, when in actuality, they won't have to work overtime anymore just to pay their bills, thereby leaving more jobs on the table for other workers.

I've heard them threaten to raise prices, when in fact they've made huge increases in profit throughout the pandemic while lowering our pay.

There is plenty of money to go around.

The problem is simple distribution.

Pay gig workers reasonable compensation before raking in record profits, and then everybody wins.

I've heard them blatantly say that it wouldn't be equitable for people of color and immigrants, et cetera.

This is absolutely laughable.

The way to help vulnerable populations is to pay them enough to provide for their families.

with enough left over to put money back in our local economy.

40,000 people able to buy more would give our local economy a big boost.

Not like the current boondoggle, which siphons off money from our local community to send out of state.

They act as if we're greedy for at least wanting the same protect as all the other workers in this state enjoy.

A minimum wage is not an unreasonable ask.

Finally, they want to study it.

We already know the economic impact.

Us gig workers have studied it for years.

Asking for more studies is a straight out stall tactic.

Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.

Pass pay up.

It's the right thing to do.

Thank you, Kimberly.

Again, our next two speakers, Exile Mena and Elizabeth, are both still listed as not present.

So we'll go down to Sage Wilson, followed by Melissa, I believe it's Biswas.

Hi, Sage Wilson with Working Washington here in support of the payout policy.

I wanted to speak to the citation about the idea that workers are somehow making $28 an hour, because I think that sounds like a lot.

And I think it would be quite a surprise to the workers you've been hearing from for the past year plus, because they're not making that much money.

First of all, you know, DoorDash's minimum rate currently is $2 a job.

That's $2 regardless of time, miles, et cetera.

And so how then to understand that, where that $28 number comes from.

And, you know, first of all, it's cited as an average rather than a minimum, but even setting that aside, it's really important to keep in mind, you know, it's going to be, we'll have said already that that number includes tips and does not account for any expenses.

And shifting those expenses to workers is such a big part of the entire problem of how the gig economy is currently working.

just think about payroll taxes and mileage expenses and you're already talking, even if that $28 number were an accurate one, we're already talking about less than minimum wage in terms of what people are getting paid after expenses, which is why you've been hearing about this issue from workers for more than a year.

You know, and that's the kind of reason why I pay like this is why DoorDash is number 12 on the list of companies in Washington State with the largest number of workers on food stamps.

Uber is number three, by the way.

And DoorDash is also number 18 on the list of companies with the largest number of workers in Washington State on Medicaid.

Uber, again, number nine, similar ranking.

And our survey of thousands of workers showed really similar kinds of impacts like this of low pay that, for example, 64% reported they had less than $100 in their bank accounts at some point in the past year.

And 36% reported they've been unable to afford groceries or other basic household items.

And so finally, just the idea that A minimum pay of minimum wage after expenses for your time is too high is absurd, because we know what happens when we raise pay.

It means more people have more money, which means more customers to spend at local businesses, and it's a win-win.

Our last speaker that we have listed that is showing as present Is Melissa Biswas, Melissa?

Hi, my name's Melissa Biswas and I'm currently a gig worker.

I'm a full-time driver for Uber and Lyft and I've done this for the last six years.

As some people might not agree, like I oppose having minimum wage I don't want to cap and I signed up to be a driver so I can work full time and be my own boss is why I signed up.

And last year during the pandemic was the biggest income profit that I've made with the whole time I've been with Uber.

So to say that we're underpaid, I don't agree with that statement.

because I do feel that we get a fair amount as far as our pay, and I don't want a cap on my pay.

I've picked up a lot of regulars for years.

I have a very good rapport with my customers, and I do feel that I'm adequately paid.

However, I do feel that we do deserve to have benefits as far as workers comp, and I don't agree with it being postponed because we are risking driving every single day and making sure that our passengers are getting safely to their destination.

Every single day we're in traffic and I felt that we do do a good job for the community out there and that we are fairly paid.

So I'm asking the council to consider not putting a cap on our pay.

Thank you, Melissa.

I did hear a reference to passengers.

This is not TNC legislation, but we can follow up with you afterwards.

We have another speaker that was showing is not present, that is now showing his presence.

So I'd like to go back up to Elizabeth Gilmore.

Elizabeth?

And if you want to hit star six, we'll be able to hear you.

Try again, star six, Elizabeth, so we can have you unmuted.

Ah, there you go.

There we go.

Sorry about that, guys.

Hi, my name is Elizabeth Gilmore, and I live in Seattle.

And I've been offering in-home care pet services through Rover for two years.

I usually just do in-home sitting services because it works best for my schedule.

I work a full-time job on the side.

I love the flexibility that Rover has.

It allows me to choose the customers with them before and choose my own rates and it helps me earn supplemental income because we all know Seattle is very expensive.

And I'm sharing my concerns today because I think it would impact me And I set my rates to reflect the full range of needs that a pet may require.

Obviously, every pet is very different.

Sometimes I have very high energy dogs, and sometimes I have very relaxed dogs who just want to sit and lie on the floor all day.

And for me, this flat rate that I set is a comfortable rate for me and my clients.

I usually just rotate between the four clients that I have in Seattle, and I feel like it's a fair way to protect myself and my clients and I urge the council to change the bill to protect my choices.

And that's it.

Thank you so much for hearing me.

Thank you so much.

With that, I think that is our last speaker.

I do wanna just touch on next steps.

We had originally scheduled some time on our next committee meeting on the 10th To begin to actually hear from council members and central staff on the amendments that they were seeking to put forward.

We did go over, not so much amendments but concepts issue ID in the, in the last committee meeting.

because we wanted to hear more from the public and get more ideas to surface, and also to give our analytical staff more time to draft amendments.

We are not having this topic on our agenda on May 10th, but we are going to be having it on our next committee meeting on May 24th.

If I'm misspeaking, Alex, speak up.

That's correct.

OK, great.

That's good to hear it.

And so, again, this topic is not on the agenda on May 10th.

It will be on the agenda on May 24th.

And at that point, we'll be hearing from council members on the amendments that they're interested in bringing forward based on both what we heard in committee the end of April and what we're hearing today and the other public input that we're receiving as we go every day.

And with that, if there are no comments or questions from my council colleagues, not seeing any raised hands, thank you so much, everybody, for being with us.

It is 3.02 p.m.

and we are adjourned.

Thank you.