Good afternoon, everyone.
Good to see so many of you.
Happy Day After Labor Day.
I want to start this committee and let you all know this is a special committee meeting of the Housing, Health, Energy, and Workers' Rights Committee.
Today, we're having a Lunch and Learn, or a work session, if you're familiar with Olympia Lingo, we like to call this a work session, talking about the new economy and workforce.
Just to clarify, this is not a specific work session related to TNC drivers, this is about the gig economy as a whole, and so we'll be looking broadly at gig economy work, the changing work environments, and want to start off by saying thank you to all who labor.
Thanks to all of our labor unions, organized labor, workers in every single sector.
Yesterday was Labor Day and we honor your work not just by recognizing it on Labor Day, but by doing the work that we try to do here in committee, which is to expand and protect labor standards in every single sector and to look at new and emerging economies.
and try to figure out how we can continue to expand labor protections in non-traditional work environments.
That's what this is all about in terms of public policymaking and just want to take a quick second to recognize yesterday was Labor Day and to honor the work of all labor.
So let's give it up for all workers internationally.
Again, it's 12.02, and the Special Committee on the Housing, Health, Energy, and Workers' Rights Committee will come to order.
And I'm Teresa Mosqueda, chair of the committee.
Before I begin with some introductions, I'd love to have some people who are going to be joining us come on up to the table here so we can start our committee discussion promptly.
Mariah Mitchell with Caviar Postmates and other app-based work.
Dawn Creary with App-Based Drivers Association.
Rebecca Smith.
Come on up, Director of Work Structures from the National Employment Law Project.
Mia Kelly from Instacart.
Aya Nguyen, I apologize if I said that wrong, from the Project Lead of the Future Initiative.
Data and Society Research Initiative.
Ms. Nguyen, thanks for coming.
And then Ulysses Galvez from Instacart and Postmates.
So welcome, everybody.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Councilmember Herbold is the chair of CRUEDA, which also has economic development in it and has done a ton of work on workplace protections, especially in the gig economy.
Thank you for being here.
Michael Bryan, thank you for being here, a longtime advocate for workers and labor standards as well and has really been putting the issue of wages and the human service sector on our radar, which we were happy to be able to work on this year.
Thank you for joining us.
Folks at the table, we may have more people join us from our council colleagues.
And we also have folks on the phone who are being projected on the screen.
And we will also have a chance for everybody to introduce themselves in just a minute here.
So we wanted to take a second to have a conversation about the gig economy, especially tying it into Labor Day and recognizing the changing structure of the work environment and the need for us to look at how economies are changing and to specifically discuss gig work.
We will have public comment at the end of this committee, and we know that there's a lot to talk about in this realm, and many of the items we're hoping to tee up, I think, for future work in the council, nothing specifically coming up later this fall, because we do have budget coming up in about four or five weeks, which will consume all of us.
But I know that there's a lot of items on the to-do list that many worker and worker advocates have been asking for for a very long time.
So this will give us a chance to look at policy changes, looking at labor standards, especially in the gig economy, and how the gig economy and its rise in the Seattle area and across the nation has been complex, but that we have experts, experts that we've had the chance to work with in the past.
when I was at the Washington State Labor Council, AFL-CIO, and experts on the ground in terms of the workers themselves, to think about how we can lift up some of these labor standards.
We'll be looking at various policy perspectives moving forward, and we'll be looking to bring more folks in to this discussion, including from the industry, as we talk about policy in the future.
So without further ado, Farideh, why don't we officially read in item number one into the agenda, and then we'll have folks introduce themselves.
Oops, I think the, there you go, and the microphone.
Sorry about that.
Agenda item number one, panel discussion with national academic experts and gig economy workers for briefing and discussion.
Excellent.
So why don't we go ahead and go around the table and just have you say your name and your organization or who you're representing, and then we'll get started with the official presentation in just a little bit here.
But just so that we can officially say who's at the table, let's start here.
Don Critty.
I'm with the App-Based Drivers Association affiliated with Teamsters 117.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Hi.
I'm Rebecca Smith with the National Employment Law Project.
Excellent.
Valeria Cuevas with Consuelo Mosqueda's office.
Hi, my name is Mia Kelly, and I'm with the Pay Up Campaign, and I work for Instacart.
Hello, my name is Ulysses Galvez, Instacart worker and Postmates.
And Council Member O'Brien, why don't you introduce yourself as well?
Council Member O'Brien.
I'm Mariah Mitchell, and I work for Uber Eats, Caviar, Postmates, and Lyft.
Excellent.
And Council Member Herbal.
Council Member Lisa Herbal, representing West Seattle and South Park, District 1.
Excellent.
And we have one person with us by Skype.
Oh, I can't hear you.
We can't hear you.
Let's see if you're on mute.
Can you hear me now?
Yes, we can.
Great.
I'm the project lead for the Labor Futures Initiative at Data and Society Research Institute.
Excellent.
And thanks for joining us via Skype.
And we also know we have a PowerPoint presentation, so we'll probably be toggling back and forth between screens.
But we're very excited to have you.
So thank you all again so much for joining us.
We are going to go ahead and start with our workers.
The folks who are here at the table, we are asking for you to share a little bit about yourself, what your interaction has been with the gig economy and the type of work that you do, and how long you've been doing it, and why you started to embark on this work in the gig economy.
And then after that, we will turn to some of our issue experts, our research and academic experts, to talk a little bit more about what the gig economy is and the prevalence of workers in the gig economy.
So if you'd like to start us off, that'd be great.
OK.
Don Crary.
I've been an Uber and Lyft driver for five and a half years.
I, prior to that, I did assorted jobs.
I was an actor, musician, stagehand.
The 2008 recession really put a lot of that work, made it difficult to make comfortable living that.
And so like many people around that time, Uber and Lyft came along and I checked that out.
And I would say for about a year, it went quite well.
And then the rate cuts began.
And here we are today.
Rate cuts begin.
Is there anything else that you'd like to share about why you decided to go into that area?
Well, I was looking for another line of work.
I mean, like I said, with the 2008 recession, many things that working class people did were gone.
I mean, you know, most of what I did, I have taught guitar lessons for a while.
I made part of my living doing that.
And that sort of work was eliminated in 2008. So I had to start, you know, filling in the gaps there.
And initially, Uber and Lyft filled in quite well for about a year.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Anybody else like to share their work or perspective?
My name is Mia.
Last year, I basically make wedding cakes.
And in between the wedding cakes, I was able to supplement my income through Instacart.
A few weeks, or actually more, four weeks in, I was injured on the job.
And thinking that I would be protected by Washington State, I found that I wasn't.
I found that I was not afforded the same rights as somebody who was signing off on a W-2 versus someone who was signing on a W-1099.
I found that this work was great for those of us that have hidden illnesses, those of us that have chronic illnesses that we don't share with the rest of the public.
I mean, after all, what sort of job would allow you to be off for weeks on end or even quickly within that same day?
So I felt that working for Instacart and plus having my own tiny wedding cake business, that was the way to go.
Unfortunately, there was, as earlier was said, there was a rate change.
And basically, my pay went from, went basically down two-thirds.
So, yet you're expected to do the same amount of work, but for only one-third of the pay.
And this is where, this is one of the reasons why I got into this.
I'd like to build on what she said when it comes to having some hidden illnesses.
My name is Ulysses Galvez.
I was a combat corpsman with the Marine Corps.
I did several combat pumps for this country in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in Africa.
I did 20 years of service for my country.
And coming back, I came back with my body, but of course, my mind and my soul have been broken.
And so I struggled.
with what she's talking about.
I can't hold a regular job because of the things that I saw and the things that I did for my country, which is fine.
It's what happened.
That's war.
And I'm OK with that.
But what I'm not OK with is when I started this job, it was almost a godsend because it allowed me to, when I was having a good day or having a good day, I can go work and be a productive member of society and have human contact with people that, you know, especially with Instacart, I have several elderly people that have dementia and other medical problems that they can't get to the store.
And so it allowed me human contact with them that they appreciate and I appreciate and You know, I'd sit and talk with them sometimes.
They'd ask me about my service.
And, I mean, it was a human connection that a lot of jobs don't allow you to do.
But the main thing is like what she said was that I was able to go on whenever I could.
I also do a lot of, well, I used to do a lot of volunteer service with Stand Up For Kids.
We work with homeless teens.
And, but since they did the pay cut, I haven't been able to engage in that type of community service anymore because now I'm having to work 12 to 14 hours just to bring in the same amount that I was bringing in when I first started with the company.
I'm pretty much living out of my car now because I have to strategically place myself in areas where there's going to be a lot of orders instead of going home.
Because it's just the mileage is killing me with 330, you know, gas is what, 330 a gallon and goes up here and there.
And that affects, you know, that affects the work, you know, the amount that I have to pay.
And so what I'm getting at is what I'm trying to say is that there are some positive things about this type of work for people like us.
But lately, it's become a negative, because it's caused almost an income anxiety.
And it's something that, for me, is deprimental to my mental health, because with anxiety comes stress.
And what does that do to me?
Well, at night, when everybody's asleep, I start to get my night terrors again and I start to relive the things that I saw and the things that I did because I'm stressed out about, oh my gosh, I gotta look at my phone and see if there's an order.
In the morning I get up, the first thing I do is I look on my phone and I look for an order and see if there's gonna be an order that I can, maybe it's a $40 order or a $50 order, you know, I'm hoping.
And so I'm tied to my phone, not playing, not looking at Facebook or not doing, playing a video game or anything like that.
I'm looking on my phone for orders.
So even my quality of life has greatly been suffering because I'm sitting there like a crazy man on my phone.
Even when I'm out to dinner with my family, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a good order, I gotta go.
And it's so, it's affected my community work, it's affected my family.
And a lot of people would tell me, well, why don't you just go get another job?
Well, because I served, and I have, no job is going to allow me to call and say, hey, I had a bad night last night.
I can't come to work.
So I can't work in an office.
I can't do a 9 to 5 job because of what she talked about, what I'm going through, or what I am going through.
And it's a lifeline thing that I'm going to have to deal with the rest of my life.
So, yeah, that's it.
That's very helpful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I know you've put together a video, too, which I think we'll show after we hear from you, Mia, and Maria.
And then we will watch that video, and then we'll hear from some of the academic experts in the field.
And then we'll open it up for some questions.
I know I have some and I'm sure that the council colleagues have some as well.
So that this is very helpful ground setting for us as we understand what individual work experience has been and what you've seen from your colleagues in the sector and how the changing economy has affected both the line of work that you do and the emotional experience that you just described.
Go ahead.
So I just wanted to say that The reason why I started doing the gig economy jobs, I graduated from the University of Washington in 2005. I have two bachelors.
I interned at the City Hall.
I applied to every law school.
I did not get an opportunity to go to law school, and I'm a single mother.
needed a job.
I have to take care of my children.
I have to feed them.
And this was perfect for me.
And in the beginning, Uber was paying a lot of money.
So it was great.
It was working out.
I was able to get my kids to school.
I wasn't able to work a traditional 9 to 5 because I would have to leave work to drop off my kids, pick up my kids.
And I couldn't find an employer flexible enough for my children's schedules.
So I started doing this in between time, while they were at school, and I've been doing it about three years.
Postmates, Uber, and Caviar.
And since then, they've been cutting the pay.
So, and my car broke down from the wear and tear.
So, with the registration, the tabs, the insurance, it was, I'm paying more than I was making.
So, I started doing Lyft.
And they give us cars through Hertz.
And basically, I do Lyft to pay for the vehicles so I can keep a vehicle.
I do Uber to pay the money so I can buy my kids food.
I do Caviar so I can buy school clothes.
And I do Postmates to buy school supplies and gas and the other things that need to be paid for.
And I'm finding that I'm working more hours than I would be if I was in a traditional 9 to 5, because I'm waking up at 4.30 to do the Starbucks orders, IHOP, and Denny's.
And then I'm switching over to Lyft to give people rides to work.
And then I switch to Postmates to drop my kids off at school, switch to Postmates, do Postmates and Caviar for the lunch rush from 11 to 2, get to the school to pick my children up from Lowell Elementary, Meany Middle School, Garfield High School, and then I go back and do Caviar to do the dinner rush from 5 to 9, find somewhere in between there to feed my children, and then finally fall asleep about 10 o'clock and start back over again the next day.
Every day.
And it's taken its toll.
Thank you all for sharing those stories so that we can really have a grounding of how this work has affected both the workers and the type of industries that we're talking about.
I'm sure that a lot of people in the audience and maybe here on council have had interactions with the app-based economy, whether it's DoorDash, Instacart, Grubhub, taking Lyft or Uber, we interact with these services.
But having the chance to really dive into how this has affected the work and the work environment is really the point of this Lunch and Learn today.
I'd love if we could go to slide three and show the video to just sort of round out this discussion about grounding us.
And this is the video that we understand has been shared with, by Ulysses.
And I will try to change the lights here.
so that more folks can see.
And then, Farideh, do we have audio for this?
Maybe if we can go back to the beginning, too.
Joseph, are you able to help us?
Is there no audio?
OK, so let me fill in the gaps.
Yeah, that'd be great.
OK, so what you're seeing is a typical order for Postmates.
So you see the count.
There's a countdown timer on that.
You have about 30 seconds to accept this order.
So if you look at the little circle, you'll see a little circle.
If you go back.
Okay, you see the circle?
It's counting down.
That's a 30-second circle that you have to decide whether you're going to take that job or not.
And because of the lack of transparency, they're not telling us like what the mileage is.
So what some of us do is what he's doing is he's going into, Google Maps and seeing what is the mileage, how far is that, how far is it to the order, how far is it to the customer, right?
And then you're saying, okay, is, you know, and other factors that are not really talked about, but traffic too, right?
So I'm going to spend 30 minutes in traffic or 15 or whatever to get to that order.
So y'all think about time.
But you have 30 seconds to contemplate, is this order worth it?
And as you can tell, do you see a price anywhere?
There's no what they're gonna pay us.
It's all up in the air.
You're hoping it's gonna pay you enough that it's gonna justify you taking that job.
Where before the change, they used to give you a guesstimation.
Like, this job's gonna pay $20 or $15.
So you can say, okay, with the mileage and that, okay, that's worth it.
But now, I mean, would you do a job like that?
You know, I'm gonna take that job and you don't know what it is and you gotta go 10 miles.
And that's downtown, you know, that's in traffic too.
Yeah, the time of day really matters.
Right, and so when you add up the mileage, not even your time, mileage and everything else, at the end of the slide, you'll see it was like, take home pay was like $2.
That's our minimum wage.
Thank you for showing us that side of the app, which I know a lot of people who use these apps don't see.
Right, you don't see that.
And you know, most customers that I talk to and let them know about this stuff, you know, because you kind of feel people, right?
And that's a lot of my training in the military, right?
I can tell when someone is going to react with me and maybe have an empathy for me, right?
Somebody just give me my food and get out of here.
That's, you know, you don't talk to those people.
But all the customers that generally care, They all tell me that's BS.
They're like, why are you doing this?
Oh my gosh, how can we help you?
They are very empathetic to our plight.
And so it's not to say, well, the customers are not willing to pay more.
I know they're willing to pay more because I've talked to them.
90% of the customers that I've ever talked to, they're like, yeah, I'll pay you more.
I'll pay a living wage.
So, Becky Smith, with that question in mind, from the customer perspective of wanting to, of course, be able to access some of these services, but knowing that some of the workers are in this situation, if the question is, how can we help?
Can you give us a better perspective of how many workers we're talking about in this industry?
I know you have a few slides in addition to your colleague.
who's on the Skype with us, but if you both could help walk us through the next few slides here and really give us a better understanding of the gig economy, how many workers are in it, and what trends you're seeing so that we can understand kind of the scope of the issue as we pair these stories with the data.
Sure, we might actually want to start with Iha.
I think her slides are more the size and I can talk a little bit about trends.
Sure.
Does that make sense, Iha?
I'm looking at the screen.
Can she hear us?
Sure, I can go ahead and talk a little bit about algorithmic management.
Great, and as you speak, we can hear you loud and clear.
Do you want us to be showing certain slides as you speak?
No, I think it's OK.
There's only one slide, and I think it's the very last one.
But I think maybe it's better for me to just explain it.
OK, great.
We will toggle back to you then.
We can see you now.
Yeah, so just to give a little background, Data and Society studies the implications of data-centric technologies on work.
And in this context, we refer to these types of systems as algorithmic management, the point being they are used in order to manage workforces.
And this has been especially useful for managing workforces that are dispersed, right?
Not in a central location, but it's also being adopted in more traditional workplaces as well.
And there's varying degrees of complexity, but sort of what you're seeing is prolific data collection and surveillance of workers through technology, such as GPS systems and workers logging in and logging out.
And they use that data in order to have real-time responsiveness in order to inform management decisions.
So this is kind of what enables ride-hailing companies to say there's a surge that's happening in this area because they know that all of these customers want rides.
And so they're able to use that data to push drivers into a particular space in order to pick up those rides.
And in that sense, it's automating or semi-automating decision making for people that would normally do it themselves, which is drivers who would normally say, if they had all the information, this is a ride that I will take or this is a ride that I won't take.
But having all of that information in the hands of the company creates an information asymmetry.
That's why it makes it difficult for workers to be able to decide, you know, I really don't want to take this ride because it's going to take me to a location that's very remote and then I'm going to have to pay for the drive back.
And so what happens is companies then create nudges and penalties to indirectly incentivize workers to behave a particular way.
And these are sort of the The four key elements that we're thinking about right now, I've just listened to what people are talking about.
The last one is sort of, this is where we started to get into this conversation about customers, is the transfer of a lot of performance to customers.
They're the ones that rate a performance, and that's another form of control through performance evaluations and a gaming of work.
Thank you so much.
Becky, do you want to start us back with some of the other data as well?
Sure.
Sure.
So people talk about the gig economy in different ways.
And you'll see some reports that say 20% or 30% or 50% of us are working in the gig economy.
And that really sort of depends on how you are thinking of the gig economy.
In one study, Because I got an honorarium for something I wrote a month or so ago, I would be considered in the gay economy.
I have a full-time job.
I'm not.
But there is sort of a whole universe of people who are working different ways than a full-time W-2 job, including folks who are working for temp and staffing agencies or folks who are on call or for contract firms, and then independent contractors.
And independent contractors are about 10% of the workers in this country, and usually people situate app-based work within that.
Not all app-based work is independent contractors.
There are some companies that treat workers as employees, but usually the biggest ones are in that independent contractor thing.
Across the country, the best data is that it's about 1% of the population, so not a huge number of people so far, but growing and growing here in Washington State.
A study that was just commissioned by the legislature found that it's grown about 15% over a period of, I think, about four years.
So very small, but growing, and I think a huge influence overall because so many of the companies very frankly treat workers as independent contractors and don't pay payroll taxes and don't feel obligated to pay minimum wage or things like that.
Interestingly, we think about the electric bikes and electric scooters as being app-based, but one of the things that we just learned from, I think, our colleagues in Chicago is, as they rolled out their scooter policy, they required the workers in that industry to be actual W2 workers.
And so I think that's a good example of where you have an app-based line of employment, but it is absolutely employment.
It's not an independent contractor situation.
Is that a good example of where your work may be dictated by an app, but you're still actually classified as a worker, an employee?
Sure.
And there are a number of companies that do that.
They offer the flexibility that workers have talked about really wanting, but they also comply with basic labor standards.
So we have a few slides and I'm wondering if Mia, we might be able to start with you if we look at slide four.
We have an example of an Instacart pay summary screenshot.
Oh yes, go ahead.
Can I just add something really quick on what you just said?
What I've noticed, especially on Instacart, is they keep telling us that we're that we're contractors.
But yet, if we're truly contractors, if a job comes to me, I should be able to refuse it because I'm a contractor.
But instead, I get penalized.
Right.
Right?
Because if you keep, if they give me an order for $5 and you say, no, I'm not taking that for $5, are you crazy?
I'm not going 10 miles for $5.
Then for three minutes, you have to wait.
And then they send it to you again.
You got to wait another three minutes and then decline it.
Then, If they send you another one that's low, that you say no, then they kick you off the system.
And give you a reliability incident.
But they say we're contractors.
If I'm truly a contractor, and I spoke to customer service about this, if I'm truly a contractor, I should be able to say no, I'm not going to do that job.
So they want it both ways.
They want to treat us as contractors when it suits them, but they want to treat us like employees and penalize us when we don't take a job.
It's a really, really important distinction.
And maybe before we go to this slide, having had the chance to work with Rebecca Smith from NELP for a number of years on misclassification issues, one of the things that I know you know inside and out is the definition of direction and control when you look at someone on whether or not they truly are an independent contractor or not.
Do you mind just sharing with the folks in the room and everybody who's watching online the definition of direction and control, which is really something that we should be looking at to define whether or not there's a bona fide independent contractor role versus being told where to go, what to do, and then having penalties associated if you don't do that.
Do you mind sharing a little bit of background on that?
Yeah, I mean, the essence of being in business for yourself is that you have control over things other than maybe the hours that you work.
You get to decide what customers you choose, and you get to set your own standards, and you get to set your own rates.
And that is what is being in business for yourself.
So think the plumber who comes to your house or the electrician who, at least at my house, they tell me what they're going to charge.
I don't tell them.
And when you think of what Iha was talking about too, in some ways these companies exert more control than any W-2 employer you can think of because of the algorithms and because they keep track of workers every movement.
Very interesting.
So do you mind walking us through a few examples of the Instacart screen that we're looking at here?
Sure, not a problem.
And just pull real close if you can.
There you go.
So this is what we're looking at.
This screen here is what you'll get.
You'll first be told where you're going to go shop at, how many pieces you're going to get, and is it going to be a full service order or a delivery only order.
A full service order is basically where you go in and shop and package up and go.
Delivery only is when you just go in, pick up the already picked out items, and then off you go.
If you take a look at it, you, like earlier was said, you only have a certain amount of time to figure out, are you going to take this order?
You have to figure out your daily expenses.
With that knowledge, you then say yes or no to it.
Because at this point, you go ahead and say, okay, it's going to be only $9.45.
What time of day is it?
Is it going to be an hour's worth of work?
Is it going to be 15 minutes worth of work?
How long are you going to be in traffic?
So at this rate, we already know that you're only going to really get paid $8.46 an hour.
That's after everything.
That's after you paid off your gas, your car note.
And if you think about it, is $8.46 worth your time?
Because it's not going to pay the rent.
It's not even going to pay the cable bill or even the phone bill that you use to be on these apps.
It gets worse, especially during the time of day.
Everybody wants their groceries at like four o'clock.
But we all know what Seattle is like, especially on the Mercer Mess.
You could go two miles and be stuck in traffic for over an hour.
But they calculate things as the crow flies.
They do not at all.
put that as part of their algorithm.
They don't care about that.
All they know is that PCC is over here, your customer's over here, and the crow takes two minutes.
But we're not crows.
So, because as we all know, we have to cross a bridge just to get anywhere.
If you go on to the next slide, I think, There are a lot of these types of orders that we get.
Had you asked me a year ago, it would have been better.
The only complaint that I had was, you know, you sent me to Capitol Hill twice and then you sent me all the way over to Magnolia.
That was my only complaint.
But now I can't even choose.
I have to be very picky about what I choose.
And like we said earlier, you get dinged, you get penalized if you can't afford to even do the job.
So if you take a look at this hourly rate on this one, you only get $3.76.
It's cheaper to stay home or it's cheaper to wait for the next one.
Don't get me wrong, we all want to work.
That's the reason why a lot of us have two or three jobs.
We want to work.
But we've got all these penalizations against us.
So thank you.
Let's look at the example as well from the Uber driver perspective.
Don, if you want to walk us through that as well.
And then I'd love to turn it back over to the whole panel for your all additional input and then really open it up to council member questions before we do public comment.
This is a drive, a ride I did from downtown to Capitol Hill.
What we see here is a situation that we're seeing more and more of in which I'm supposed to receive 80%.
I didn't even receive, well, I received just under, just slightly two cents over half.
So I didn't even receive 50%.
And there's no explanation on this one.
If it had been a conventional surge ride, I would have known ahead of time that it was a surge ride, and I would have gotten 80% of that.
But there's no indication here on why the rider was paying this larger sum, which I didn't receive a percentage of.
I think there's something we call upfront pricing, which As a driver, I'm not told what that is.
I don't even know that it happens.
I don't generally go checking each ride after I do it to see what the percentage breakdown was.
every now and then I'll go flipping through them and I'm seeing these rides where it's like, I got 40 or 50 or 60%.
And there's nothing indicating what happened there.
I don't know if it's like, you know, there's the rider was up front told they're going to be paying this amount.
And then it's not indicated to me at all.
So this is an instance where they are without explanation, taking Much more than their 20%.
Now, let's also talk about, okay, I received this $5.43.
Now, you know, I spent 13 minutes on this ride.
I spent a few minutes getting there, waited a few minutes afterwards for the next one.
So I probably have 20, 25 minutes invested in this $5.43.
However, my income tax return for this year would indicate, and I shared my income tax returns with you guys last year.
If you want to see them again this year, I'd be glad to provide that for you.
But it would indicate that I make just maybe over 50% of that $5.43 after taxes and expenses.
I'll just throw out in general.
After expenses, I cleared $31,000 and then I paid $5,000 in taxes this last year.
So that's $26,000 working full time in a boom town.
in, you know, in an industry that supposedly is vital to the functioning of this city and is on demand, a service which people are demanding.
The market, if we were truly engaged in free market capitalism within these companies, yeah, I would be making much more than that.
The market would demand.
There's a much greater demand than what I'm, what we're being paid for any of this.
The demand is much greater.
For what, you know, I mean, you know, these companies are engaging in monopolization is the goal.
And predatory pricing is the means by which the monopolization is trying to be achieved.
So, I mean, you know, we hear from time to time that, you know, the phrase free market being tossed out there.
I mean, these companies don't engage in free market capitalism.
If they did, they'd probably go out of business.
I'm not sure Uber and Lyft could compete in a true free market where we were allowed as independent contractors to charge what we need to charge for doing the service.
And on the next slide, you highlighted some of the key distinctions there that I just wanted to call out for folks.
I saw your hand go up.
I'm sorry.
Did you have something to add to this?
Well, I just want to say with Uber, because I do Lyft as well, and say like an airport ride, like he said, there's no flat rate.
It's supposed to be a guaranteed earning I make to go to the airport between $18 and $23.
And hopefully, I get a ride from the airport because I have my airport license, which you have to go through as well.
And then I might make another $20.
And hopefully, total, I'd make at least $50 to go to and from the airport.
But with Uber, there's also Uber Eats.
And with Uber Eats, it's not driving people around.
It's driving their food around for $5.
And you have to pay for insurance, which is over $100, tabs, registration, all this stuff for $5 an order.
It's really and if you get a ticket on top of it, you got to pay your tickets and you end up paying more than you make.
I would like to add one little thing that you know as far as like unforeseen expenses between the middle of January this year and March this year I had to have my windshield repaired four times.
I mean that's that's unusual but I mean I literally had it repaired replaced one on a Monday and Tuesday morning I got a pebble hit and then a week and a half later and then a month later but I mean and this is These are the kind of expenses that we have that the prices that the providers are paying don't cover it.
And Uber and Lyft don't pay it, so they're not concerned with that.
If we could go to the next slide that was teed up, it was slide number seven.
And Becky and Iha, we just wanted to put this one more.
There we go.
These are some of the pieces that you had mentioned when you did your overview on some of the trends that we're seeing.
Just before we open it up to questions from other council members, and we're going to save the last 10 minutes for public testimony.
Do you mind also commenting on what we've seen, what we've seen from other municipalities in terms of policymakers who've tried to address some of these trends that we've seen and some of the stories that we've heard about today?
Sure.
Yeah, it seems like the policy solutions fall maybe in three basic lines.
One is to offer workers full employee status.
And if you read the newspapers, you know that that's a big debate that's happening in California right now, along with all sorts of other workers who are often called independent contractors when they're really employees.
And that bill addresses not just app-based platform work, janitors and construction workers and all sorts of other folks.
The other is, I think, I mean, broadly, I'd call statutory employment that says, you know, these particular workers, no matter what the business wants to call them, are employees for purposes of this law or that law or this set of laws.
And, you know, what you all passed as the Domestic Worker Bill of Rights last year is a good example of that.
Those workers no matter whether they're employees or independent contractors get a certain set of rights.
And then there's others that kind of make up that difference a little more broadly and just apply, say, the San Francisco minimum wage law applies to independent contractors broadly.
The New York, of course, transportation network company minimum pay standard, again, sets minimum pay for those workers but accepts that they're independent contractors.
And then there's been some experimentation as well.
with wage board or wage and standards board's ideas.
And again, that was in the Domestic Worker Bill of Rights.
Portland is experimenting with a standards board for drivers there.
New York just passed farm worker collective bargaining, and they have a wage board to look at.
over time for farm workers, so sort of the broad, everybody's, you're an employee if, you know, a very broad test to you're an employee because this law says you're an employee, or you get certain rights as an independent contractor, and then these other ideas about how we deliver standards to workers and involve workers at the table, somewhat like what you're doing today.
Thank you.
Any other comments from you before we open it up to questions from council members?
Yeah, I had a couple of comments.
Definitely reiterating everything that Becky said.
I wanted to make a point that to think of, I think a couple of states have also tried to get access to data in order to bridge that information disparity that exists between what cities and workers and companies know.
Another approach, and this is Hopefully the city will think about gig work to include non-drivers.
There's a very large percentage of workers who are primarily women and women of color working in domestic work and they confront similar problems.
They may not be necessarily paid through an algorithm, but platforms do exact fees and penalties on them as well, and that's been a challenge for some, as well as being able to stay visible on a platform when they don't actually have some of the technological savvy that others do.
And then I think another thing that folks are trying to do is looking for greater transparency and trying to understand how decisions are made across platforms.
And then lastly, looking at I just wanted to direct folks to the second to the last slide.
So in sort of understanding algorithmic management, we've tried to break down some of the challenges that workers may face, and one of them is surveillance and control, right?
How are decisions being made, and then transparency.
There's also instances of bias and discrimination that can creep in, particularly when consumers are the ones tapped to provide the evaluation for how well a job is done, and that could take into consideration factors that actually are their inherent biases and factors.
And then lastly, accountability, and I think this definitely speaks to what Rebecca was saying, is that these apps do allow companies to distance themselves from workers, to be able to say that they're not employers.
But there are other ways that this distance gives other advantages as well.
Thank you all very much.
I know there was a few questions.
Council Member Ryan, I thought I saw you reaching for your microphone earlier, so please feel free to ask it of anybody from these two panels.
Thank you.
Dawn, I appreciate your willingness to share all the expenses and the reality that folks face.
And you all have highlighted the challenges you face.
You know, in a traditional economic system where companies are actually responsible, like they historically have been, when, you know, when windshields start breaking, they would adjust their pricing scheme to accommodate that because they recognize like, oh, our costs are wrong.
But when those costs aren't borne by the company at all, they're borne by you all at the table.
they tend to just ignore that because it's not their cost anymore.
Similarly, when they require different types of vehicles or different standards, it's not their cost.
And that's the breakdown of this traditional employer-employee relationship that we see happening now is really disconcerting.
There's the app itself, the technology that allows us to be You know, spontaneous and allows for flexibility is a great thing.
The ability to shift costs and responsibilities to folks that are not even making minimum wage is really appalling.
And frankly, it's a centuries-old trick in the book.
And I think we often get confused because of this technology and think, oh, this is a new and innovative thing.
Well, there's a piece of it that's new and innovative.
And there's a piece of it that's as old as the employer-employee relationship that they're just re-digging up and trying to mask.
So I don't, sorry, Chair, I don't really have a question.
I just, I wanted to make the statement that it's really, but I'd love to hear comments on that.
I would like to say that I believe it's a breakdown on the employer's part.
So I really need the gig economy.
I need the flexibility.
I'm not able to find the opportunities in a traditional employee environment.
to get the career making $70,000 to $100,000 a year or more.
So the alternative is this.
And without the gig economy, there is no alternative besides being homeless and living in a tent across the street.
And so there's no bathrooms.
So the homeless people are going to the bathroom on the streets, and so are the gig economy people because nobody will let us use the restrooms.
We're not being treated barely by the restaurants.
Essentially, in my opinion, I work for the restaurant I'm delivering for.
If I do a good job, this is your customer, this person's paying your restaurant, you should treat me like one of your employees, but they don't.
And so it's the employer that's causing this.
So I don't think it's just all on the gig economy or technology besides the traditional employees not providing opportunities for everyone across the board.
One more point down here and then Dawn.
So one of the things that I want to make sure everybody understands is that I appreciate having the job.
So don't get me wrong.
I don't want us to bring them down.
That's not the point.
I don't begrudge any of these CEOs who have these, you know, companies.
I don't begrudge you your homes.
I don't begrudge you your houses or your cars that you have purchased.
But what I do not appreciate is that you're stealing from me.
Not only are you taking food off my plate, but you're taking off of my fork and out of my mouth.
You're taking it from these people's children.
You think that it's just a number, part of the masses, but we're not.
We're the ones who made you where you are now.
And this is one of the reasons why that we are having a day of action this Thursday.
So I would implore you and encourage you and invite you to come and join us at 11 a.m.
over in Bellevue at the Bellevue Downtown Park.
Working Washington and the Pay Up campaign are having a rally, and we're going to walk across the street and give Postmates some peanuts, because that's what they pay us.
So, come on by.
I'd like to add that she's correct.
I want to work.
We're not lazy.
We're not expecting to get rich, and I don't have a problem with these executives making billions of dollars.
That's the American way, and that's fine, whatever you feel about it, but what I do expect them to do is treat us with dignity and respect and pay us a living wage.
That's all I want.
I'm not expecting to make $100,000, $200,000, or a million dollars.
That's not what I want.
What I want you to do is pay me an honest day's work, you know, amount of money.
An hour of work is an hour of work.
It doesn't matter what you're doing.
And if you're making billions of dollars, why can't you pay me a living wage?
I don't understand that.
I just don't.
I don't get it.
You know, in a family, if you make more money, everybody, your kids do better, they get better shoes, they get better clothes, you get a better house.
And they keep telling us, oh, you're part of the Instacart family, you're part of the Postmates family.
If you're a family, if I was treating my family the way you treat us, I would be in jail for child abuse.
You know what I'm saying?
I mean, come on, people.
I mean, there are other veterans like myself that are doing this job, and this is a lifeline to them.
And I want to be a contributing member to the society.
I want to work.
And I just want, you know, just pay me a living wage.
That's all.
I don't think I'm asking for too much, am I?
DoorDash did admit to stealing our tips and they bought caviar.
And out of all of them, I believe caviar probably pays, it's one of the better paying ones.
And if I was to steal out of the tip jar at any place in the city, I'm going to jail.
I'm at least going to have an interview with a police officer.
And I just don't see how you can admit to stealing people's tips and continue to steal our tips.
And I know they're still in my tips, because I talk to the people.
And they're like, I'm going to give you a tip.
And some of these people are trustworthy people.
And then not to see it come is disheartening.
And I just want to add one more thing.
I'm sorry.
I'm all fired up here.
I'm getting heated here.
I had a meeting with the Postmates executives, I think it was two weeks ago, with Working Washington.
And I told them my story.
And they gave me the same platitudes that just turns my stomach.
Oh, thank you for your service.
And I say, you know what?
If you really want to thank me, pay me a living wage.
Treat me with respect.
I gave for my country.
And all I'm expecting for you to give me a living wage.
That's it.
So keep your thank you for your service.
Pay me a living wage and show me that you're going to pay me a fair amount.
That's how you thank me.
And that's how you thank the rest of the veterans that are doing this job.
Can I add one more thing?
Also, as a customer myself, if I give you a tip, it's because that person has done a great job.
I expect you to have it.
I do not expect these companies to be using it as a base pay.
I do not expect, this is my thank you to them.
You're basically making me out to be a liar.
But I'm the one who's, here, here's a little extra.
Thank you.
And you're making us look bad.
We take out their trash sometimes.
I put away this elderly person's groceries into her refrigerator and throw out her old stuff because I'm a human being and I see that she's struggling.
Yeah, I could just drop her groceries off at the front door and be that's it.
But I go the extra mile.
And sometimes I'll sit with some of these people, because they'll say, Ulysses, you and my caregiver are the only two adults that I get to interact with because I don't have any more family.
And so I'll sit there and have a human connection with them.
And that makes them look good, because what do they say?
Oh, the Postmates or the Instacart driver is wonderful.
He'll sit with you, take out your trash.
I don't have to do that, but that makes them look good.
Thank you.
Council Member Herbold for one last question and then we'll go to open comment.
I just want to recognize it's less of a question more of a statement that the social contract that you described that is the expectation the company is making a huge profit It is reasonable to expect that you're paid a living wage.
And the comparison to a family and how a family operates, as Council Member O'Brien said, that has never in the history of the relationship between the employer and the employee ever magically worked by itself.
And ultimately, it's our responsibility to work together to create that accountability and to make sure that that social compact is a reality.
We are lucky that we've had folks in the community who have been raising this issue.
There's been sort of a canary in the coal mine around the gig employee for a while now.
We've reached out to some of the largest employers that use the gig economy and asked them to have a role in spurring a conversation about how to address these issues, especially as every single employment sector has some gig economy people in it now.
It's moving more and more to that.
But we can't rely on those folks to initiate those conversations.
We have to do them here now.
I appreciate understanding the role of technology.
This is very similar.
to what we learned in the secure scheduling discussions about how an app called First in Time allowed employers to basically send people home with very short notice because they're able to crunch the numbers really quickly and just get right down to the minute the number of people they need on the floor.
And they save their costs.
by minimizing the number of hours that you're working.
But that doesn't work for us, right?
We hear you.
We hear that the flexibility in this economy and with the needs that people have to care for their family means that you need this kind of work.
But we cannot let employers have it both ways.
If they're going to treat you like employees, They're going to hold you accountable.
They're going to allow other people to rate your performance.
We need to have some way of monitoring that and regulating to make sure that our, expectations as a community, as a community of people who are committed to making sure that this economy works for everyone can move forward.
So I really, really, truly appreciate your words, your experiences.
We need to understand how these apps work.
We need to understand how they impact your lives.
And that's the way that we're going to make good public policy.
So thank you.
Thank you very much for both of you for being here and for underscoring your commitment to addressing this.
Before we turn it over to public comment, any last comments that any of the panelists didn't get a chance to say?
Go ahead, Don.
Yeah, the flexibility is really important, but we have to be really careful that these companies are using flexibility to eliminate everything else.
Flexibility does not compensate for poor pay.
Poor pay eliminates flexibility.
I mean, we have a brother, Adama, here who may be commenting, he works 70, 80 hours a week.
There's not a lot of flexibility in that.
Right.
Yeah, I use that word with full understanding how it is being often used and how the use of it by other employees is being used against our efforts to have fair worker standards, so.
I would like to just add that the Unemployment Security Department, that's been my question for the past two, three years, like, where are they in all of this?
And when there's been times where I'm not making any money and there's slow periods, drought season, if you will, I'm filing for unemployment.
And what I have found is that the Unemployment Security Department has worked against me, charged me with fraud, and now I owe them.
So I can't win for losing.
So the unemployment security department, basically, there's no need for it.
I'll just quickly add what you said, Councilwoman, is that obviously these companies, like I said, I met with those executives and they gave me the full song and dance and they said, oh, we're going to help you guys, we're going to change this.
But obviously, self-regulation is not going to work.
Uber has done anything, Lyft.
None of these companies are going to, you know, do what's best for the worker, even though they say they are.
So I really, I think you hit the nail on the head that it's up to you guys who are voted in and to do legislation to protect us, you know, to have that honor, courage, and commitment that I learned in the Marine Corps that you guys can also have that honor and courage commitment when you face these companies to help us out and fight for us.
The same honor and commitment that we give to everybody when we're giving them rides to the city council, because I get a lot of rides here, and to the customers when I'm providing their food and I'm making sure that it's packaged right and people are getting their Starbucks in the morning and everybody's happy and it goes around.
I'm just not just the dumb delivery driver.
Thank you for saying that.
Go ahead.
And once again, our rally is this Thursday at 11 a.m.
at the downtown Bellevue Park.
Feel free to park over at the either mall, the Lincoln Square Mall or the Bellevue Square Mall.
Come join us, please, because we could have a lot of people there.
Thank you.
So Mariah, Dawn, Rebecca, Mia, Iha, and Ulysses, thank you very much for being here today.
Huge round of applause for your participation.
ahead and transition as we call up folks for public testimony.
We're gonna do a minute and a half testimony as for folks who need to prepare their comments and before we do that Councilmember Herbold.
I just also wanted to make mention for the viewing public that the council back in February passed a resolution directing the Office of Labor Standards to to look at the issue, not the broad issue of the gig economy, but specifically worker misclassification.
And we're actually expecting a report from the Office of Labor Standards with the help of the Labor Standards Advisory Committee later on this month for some recommendations on how to address the specific issue of workers who are misclassified.
As we've heard, the issue is much broader than that.
But I am looking forward to getting that work.
Great, great reminder.
Thank you very much for your leadership on that as well.
Thank you, Farideh, for putting up a minute and 30 seconds on the clock.
As I'm dealing out thank yous, I want to thank Sejal Parikh, Chief of Staff, who's in the back, who organized this Lunch and Learn work session.
for her help in coordinating today's discussion.
And before I call folks up, I'll call you up in groups of three.
I also want to remind folks that this is the beginning of a conversation that we are really interested in having with folks from the industry, with other workers, other experiences being shared at the table.
Given the timing today and it's a work session, it's relatively short, we just want to acknowledge that there will be more to come.
So if you weren't on today's panel, there will be more opportunities in the future and for industry as well to respond as we are very interested in the accountability and transparency issues that were raised today.
So with that, let's go ahead and hear from Jake Lindsey, Bob Guber.
Nope, Bob.
Thank you, Bob.
I appreciate you for recognizing I was struggling.
And then Adam Dirkray.
Welcome.
Thank you very much for being here, Jake.
Thank you.
I'm also an Uber and Lyft driver, who for all four years that I've worked for them, I've also made under minimum wage, sometimes even before expenses.
And as this panel shows us and the data shows us, I'm one of tens of millions of gig economy workers being taken advantage of by these really unfair contracts.
I just think it should be flatly illegal for these companies who are setting our wages to not pay us a minimum wage at the very least after expenses.
Uber and Lyft are actually now even ranking us drivers based on like how many trips we give and based on our rank we might earn certain pretty meager rewards like maybe a credit card that gives us cash back.
But I think this is important because they're demonstrating that they are willing to dynamically grant benefits to workers based on how much they earn for the company.
So why not legislate them to rank us based on how many hours we drive, not how many trips we give, because as we know, the trips don't always come.
And instead of cash back on gas, why isn't it maybe a certain number of hours works grants a certain amount of sick pay like we do for the other city legislation we have around sick pay.
So I'd like to see legislators working to explore that kind of benefit structure.
to pass like a minimum wage guarantee like the way that New York has done after expenses minimum wage.
Also, I just have to say a lot of special interest groups will come up here and try to make this false choice between flexibility and workers' rights.
And so just beware of like the drive forward group and the PR people that are going to come up here and say, you can't have workers' rights without rigged schedule.
And it's going to be like the cab industry and unions are going to ruin everything.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Bob, and then followed by Adam, and then Lynn Reed.
Welcome, Bob, and thank you for saying your last name for the record as well.
Gahl Branson.
Thank you.
And just pull the microphone real close if you can.
Okay.
There you go, perfect.
Is that better?
So I've been an Uber driver now for about six years now.
And when I started it, we got a fair pay.
The mileage rate was great and the percent that they took from us was fair Since I started It's the rates and have been going down more and more and more the percent they take goes up more and more some of them are 50% some or more and And and I've had some rides that I get paid $2.80 for some of the ones downtown, and $3.20, and that's not enough to pay for the gas stakes to go there.
So, another thing that I have to say about Uber is the background checks.
Last year, at my background check, I was deactivated for three weeks.
The reason?
determined I didn't have a driver's license.
I took my driver's license and a letter from the Edmonds Police Department that I had a valid license to the Uber hub.
They didn't believe me.
They didn't believe the state of Washington.
They didn't believe the Edmonds Police Department.
It took them three weeks to get a word back from Checker.
that I was okay to drive.
And another thing that...
Bob, could you wrap up for us just because of timing?
The time ran out.
Do you want to say one thing in conclusion?
One more thing.
Yes, about the minors.
They dispatch us to high schools to pick up minors.
If something happens, there's no insurance.
If something happens when a minor's in the car, We're going to be in deep trouble.
Uber has no- Thank you for flagging that.
That's why we need local regulations.
Thank you very much.
Adam, Dirk-Ray, Lynn-Reed, and then Michael-Wolf.
Welcome, Adam.
Thank you.
I am an Uber driver and a Lyft driver.
I just don't see how the things are going, how we're beginning and how it is now.
It's a whole lot different.
We work long hours, and always you are on that minimum wage, without benefit, without anything.
So I really ask if they can do a little better.
We just want to live a decent life, have a big family, but try to work many long hours.
Just always on that minimum wage.
That's the problem.
I don't have much to say.
Dan and the other guys have explained everything for the time limit.
I'll stop right here for you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for sharing your story and for being here today.
Lynn Reed, followed by Michael Wolfe and Rachel Lauder.
Hi, Lynn.
Good afternoon.
Thank you for hearing us here today.
Thank you to all the council members and participants.
I'm part of Drive Forward, and one of my big concerns is that we represent over 2,200 drivers in Washington State, and we weren't asked to be at the table to be part of this.
So I hear that you say that there will be more of these moving forward, and I really hope that you involve us because we have a big voice for the drivers in this area.
It came, this was scheduled very quickly.
It's very reminiscent to me and other drivers of what happened with CBO that it was passed very quickly and put through very quickly and we are hoping that there is monstrously more transparency than there was when that happened because we have opinions about this and want to be heard and don't want this railroaded through the system before anybody has a chance to react or, you know, be heard.
I think there's a lot of miscommunication about wages and how much we make.
The companies are pretty good at telling us how much we're going to make as far as per mile and per minute for the TNCs.
Some of the other gig economies, not so much.
I've chosen to remove myself from some of those like Instacart and DoorDash because they are not above board.
So I'm glad you're looking into that and look forward to having a voice in the future.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Let's hear from Michael Wolfe, Rachel Lauder, and then Wolfgang Eastman.
Hi.
Good afternoon, Chair Mosqueda, members of the committee, and thank you to the panel for participating.
It's always important to hear from people.
My name, for the record, is Michael Wolfe.
I'm the Executive Director of DriveForward.
Thank you for allowing public testimony today.
Of course, I was not thrilled on Friday when we first got the agenda for today's meeting to find that Drive Forward and our members have been excluded from this panel.
I'm thankful that you said that there will be more inclusion later and look forward to talking to you about how we can participate in that.
Also, out of respect for the ongoing negotiations between the mayor's office, companies, and other things, we decided not to bring out a lot of drivers today.
Instead, I'm going to offer you today what DriveForward stands for in these issues.
We support members' desire to remain independent and in control of their own businesses.
We support minimum hourly guarantees above minimum wage, plus extra for expenses, exclusive of tips.
We support a driver's benefit fund covering on-the-job injuries, work interruptions when our members can't work through no fault of their own.
We support portable benefit systems for independent contractors so they can support funding for benefits like health care, sick pay, and vacation pay.
We support a driver-led association administering a driver deactivation review panel so there is due process for drivers who are wrongly deactivated.
We support comprehensive reform for taxi and for hire regulations so they can compete on a level playing field with other ground transportation services.
And as I said, I would ask in the future that we participate in a lot of these discussions.
Thank you for your time today.
Thank you.
Thanks for reading that.
And if you want to email that to us, too, we'll take that list.
That's very helpful.
All right.
Rachel, welcome, followed by Wolfgang Eastman and then Michelle Rodino.
Hi, I'm Rachel Lauder.
I'm the Executive Director of Working Washington and the Fair Work Center.
I just wanted to take the moment to thank you all for having this work session.
You know, we've spent a lot of time talking about the future of work, but we don't spend a lot of time talking about the future of workers.
And this is a real great opportunity to see what these kinds of jobs have been doing to working people in our community.
We now organize what I believe to be the largest group of delivery base or delivery gig app workers in the country.
We have a community of over 10,000 workers working on Instacart, DoorDash, Postmates, and we've been coming together and talking about what they really need, and it's centered around three main things.
A fair wage, at least 15, here 16, after expenses.
Tips on top, making sure that tips intended for workers are not pocketed by the companies.
And pay transparency, what you saw here, which is having an understanding of what you're getting paid and why you're getting paid that.
So as our amazing worker leaders shared today, we are having actions this week.
We look forward to having continued discussions with you and all the community about how to raise standards for this part of the economy.
Thank you.
Thank you, Rachel, and do feel free to send your list as well.
We'd love to see that as well.
Thank you, Councilmember Ryan, for being here.
So we have three more people to testify.
Sorry, four.
Wolfgang, Michelle Rodino, Marcus Courtney, and then Kimberly Wolf.
Hi.
I'm Wolfgang Eastman.
I'm a personal shopper for Instacart.
I think a lot of things were already said, but I think we need to remember that when companies like Instacart specifically exploit their workers, they're also exploiting the customers of those workers.
And when you exploit the customers of the workers, you're also exploiting just the city in general.
So when there's this...
lack of transparency and this kind of expectation that your tips, for example, are going to the driver or you're paying this much so the driver must be making a certain amount or else it wouldn't make sense.
So the other day I read this story on the Instacart subreddit about this person who delivered and the person told them, hey, I'm not going to give you a tip because you make like $50 an hour already.
So and we don't make $50 an hour.
There's just like really the lack of information to the people who use the service and people who have heard the service, I think really helps in the favor of the company.
So it's just really, I think the public really needs to know a lot more about what's actually happening and what's not.
So I'm really happy we had this here.
So yeah, let's stop having all of our city's money going to these companies in San Francisco and actually pay into our own economy here.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Michelle and then Marcus and Kimberly.
Hi, Michelle.
Hi, I'm Michelle Rodino Colaccino.
I'm a professor of media studies from Penn State.
I actually used to live in Seattle, so it's nice to be back.
But I've been interviewing drivers for the last three years in Seattle and Philadelphia, and I've interviewed 100 drivers approximately.
And the thing, if I could sum something up, I mean, I think they really share a lot of the same problems and challenges and also hopes that I heard today.
And speaking with the drivers specifically of Uber and Lyft, I would say that driving for Uber and Lyft is like the payday loan of jobs.
A lot of the drivers I've spoken with, like a lot of the workers who have discussed their experiences today, look to driving because they need to make some money.
Expenses, just living expenses are high.
The social welfare system is not at all what it used to be and they need money quickly for their family.
So it's a payday loan in that sense and that they're going to have to pay this off at some point.
They often pay dearly, actually, with actual expenses that they end up later having to pay off or finance somehow.
And they often pay with their health.
So it's really your job to kind of underscore something that Lisa Herbold said earlier.
It's really government's job to step in and make it possible for people to work in Seattle.
Thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Marcus, Courtney, and then Kimberly Wolfe.
Marcus, good to see you again.
Thank you.
Good to see you.
Thank you member Councilwoman Mosquedo for hosting this very important forum.
on alternative work.
My name is Marcus Courtney.
I've been a long-time worker advocate when it comes to the contingent work issue as somebody that was a former high-tech permatent at Microsoft that launched the first union for tech workers in the country.
I just want to point out that the issue of gig work, as it was mentioned earlier in the session, is part of the larger, broader trend in the U.S. economy challenging the employer-employee relationship.
According to the recent reports from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that came out in June of last year, they highlight maybe that the growth of the contingent economy maybe has not changed over the past number of years.
But when you actually add up all the categories of those that are doing contingent work, from gig workers, on-call workers, contract workers, independent contractors.
In the United States, more than 17 million people today in the economy are working as contingent workers, and those workers are less likely to have benefits, retirement security, as well as health care, and they're more likely to be women and minorities.
So that's a very important issue, and I just wanted to highlight that and elevate that as well.
Economists such as Katz and Krueger have also noted that from their research, they have seen the contingent economy growing from 1 to 2 percent over the past five years.
I think this is going to be a very important and emerging issue, especially in Seattle, a town and a city where there are more programmers than there are cashiers.
that are working in the high-tech new economy, and that's where a lot of this work is getting done.
And so I think this is a really important issue, so I applaud the city council for elevating the voices of workers and this issue.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Marcus.
Kimberly Wolf.
Welcome, Kimberly.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councilmembers.
I was particularly glad to hear one of the Councilmembers mention the fact that even though this is new technology, it's the same old stuff that these people are doing for decades, for centuries, you know.
It's the same old thing.
If we'd had something like this just before the Industrial Revolution, I wonder how much human misery and even death could have been pushed to the side or not happened.
The fact that we get the 40-hour work and labor laws to help you not get your hands caught in the machine and all this kind of stuff.
This is the modern day version of that pre-industrial revolution time.
And we need to get ahead of this.
So I applaud you for doing this right now.
There's a lot of hidden expenses that we have.
Just to mention one that I hadn't heard anybody mention.
You know, IRS, when you figure your 50 cents per mile or whatever, that's figuring in wear and tear on your car.
Well, what about the depreciation on my car?
I got a loan on my car.
And within two years, I was underwater on that car because of the huge number of miles I put on it.
My old car, I maybe popped, say, two tires in three or four years.
With the new car, eight.
It has been eight in four years.
I don't know, 50 bucks a pop.
Okay, so these are the kinds of expenses that we are incurring but are not getting any sort of help with.
Something's got to give, and I'm afraid if you guys don't do something strong, it's going to be us.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that.
That is all the folks that I had signed up for public testimony.
Was there anybody else that wanted to testify that didn't get a chance to sign up?
Well, I think that the words that Kimberly just left us with in recognition of yesterday being Labor Day, and people applauding the work of the eight-hour day, the fact that we have a weekend, the words that we use to honor labor on Labor Day, and trying to not just do that for past work and past work experiences, but to look at the changing nature of work.
is a call to action for all of us and appreciate Councilmember Herbold your leadership on this and for being here today and for all the folks who testified today and for your work in the past on this issue.
There will be more conversations as you heard and so we look forward to working with you on that.
There's going to be a number of things that I'll be looking at.
Direction and control, class of worker legislation that New York has done, the rights of independent contractors, transparency, issues around accountability, also the role of the unemployment insurance system, workers' compensation, And access to bathrooms.
I thought that was a really important point.
And then also protection for minors.
That was something new that had been put on my radar.
So much more to come as we look into this issue.
Overall, we've been a city that has been historically looked at as a leader.
on worker standards, especially on minimum wage, secure scheduling, sick leave.
This is an area that I am hoping that the City of Seattle will continue to lead on as we think about protecting, yes, in some cases, the flexibility, but more importantly, making sure that the labor standards that we have fought for apply to all sectors, including no matter how anybody is classified and where their work comes from.
Whether it's a directive from a boss or a directive from an app, we want those labor protections extended and protected.
So with that, more conversations to come.
And just for the good of the order, the next Housing, Health, Energy, and Workers' Rights Committee will be on September 5th.
That's this Thursday at 9 a.m.
and we hope folks tune in for that as well.
Thank you all for participating today and for being here for public testimony.
Thank you very much Council Member Herbold.